Interview / Marilyn Manson Ex Tells Truth About Manson's Innocence & Controversial Groupie Video

Marilyn Mason
by Julian Broad

Interview

Marilyn Manson Ex Tells Truth About Manson's Innocence & Controversial Groupie Video

The interview page source is a machine-generated transcript of the original video.

July 30, 2021

Colonel Kurtz: Hello everybody! Uh thank you for joining us! And I am so excited to have this guest here. I'm really appreciative that she's coming on to talk to us. She came forward wants to provide her insight on Marilyn Manson from the time that she spent with him and what she knows of him and and relate her own experience about what he's like. And she's not here to criticize any of the accusers or anything like that. She's just here to share her story. And so I'm really grateful that she is here with us and I just want to say hi! This is Pola Weiss!

Marilyn Manson

Pola Weiss: Hello!

CK: Very, she's very beautiful as you can see. So I think that you know we're going to have a conversation about a number of things. And so there'll be plenty of time for me to ask questions but I wanted to just kind of uh throw up on the floor to you uh at the outset. If there's if there's anything that you want to say right now or um is do you want to tell our audience you know why you're here?

PW: Yeah I'm here because I was watching everything that was happening. And it really hurts to see a friend get really dragged like that in the press. And I wanted to just get clarity for everybody on that but personally for me like I wouldn't feel right not coming forward knowing him and knowing who he is. I would have not been able to believe myself if I hadn't stepped forward and said something because it's just so unjust. You know, in my opinion.

CK: My my feeling is that when people watch this interview they're going to see that you're coming at this from nothing, but a place of truth and of conscience.

PW: Absolutely.

CK: You're not you know if you had wanted to get into the limelight, you could have come out months ago but you're actually...

PW: ... years ago. Whatever. You know but yeah I'm very low-key person i keep a very low profile like... You know I got my I got my uh my dose of fame back in the day when I was doing that stuff. But when I was ready to leave it I was ready to leave it. So yeah I'm uh I'm really only here just because I I just hate to see this for him. It's so unfair what people have been able to do they basically like try to he's gotten railroaded. I think in a lot of ways um it's not fair to him he's a person with a career who has a wife and a life and should be allowed to you know live and do what he does... But yeah it's, it's just very sad to me.

CK: So I guess what I'd like to start with is just asking um how how long uh have you known Manson? Where did where did you meet the?... Anything like that.

PW: So I've known Manson since he was 22. So this is good we go way way back. Um I met him through Trent Reznor. I was hanging out with him a lot. We were buddies when he lived at the Tate house, the Tate murder house on Cielo drive. And he had gone and discovered uh Manson and had brought him back to I guess take him around and meet record industry people or whatever. So I had met him there at the house um so that was how I originally got to know him. So socially speaking and that...

CK: Uuh you met him and um were you were you friends for a while? Or how did that relationship progress?

PW: Uh no, I mean we just met socially. So we didn't really stay in touch or anything like that. And then a couple of years went by. And I was modeling. I had gone from B. I was a student at the time when I had met him at the Tate house. I was a student and then a couple years went by and I had started modeling. And uh so I had gotten on a casting call for a music video from Matthew Rolston. And I got, I was very pleased to find out that yeah. I landed the principal role in this in this music video. And then I ended up in the makeup chair like at 6 in the morning sitting there in my underwear waiting to get my face done. And like I looked in the chair next to me and: there he was! And I was like: wow fancy meeting you here!

CK: So you were doing um a different music? It wasn't a Manson music video?

PW: It wasn't a music video but they didn't tell me that at the time I just had the name of the director...

CK: I got you.

PW: And Matthew Rolston is the director of the of the video. So that's all I knew is I was showing up for Matthew Rolston.

CK: And the title of the video for is...

PW: Long Hard Road Out of Hell.

CK: Okay so you get in there. You're not sure you know you've got a modeling gig. You get in there and you sit down and then you see Manson.

PW: Yeah and it was like wow. Just like old times right you know. So it was cool actually. It was cool it was actually really different when I, when I ran into him that the second time or, I mean the second time we actually got to hang out or whatever, because I had met him several times at the Tate house but we never like hung out just one-on-one or anything like that, so... But uh yeah so we ended up shooting the video um, and over the course of the video we you know got to be kind of chummy I guess and then we started hanging out afterwards. And, and there it is.

CK: And so about... How long did you... When when you reconnected about? How long did you hang out with them?

PW: Like three or four months I think actually.

CK: Okay, yeah so I mean that's a fairly significant amount of time.

PW: Yeah. he was, he was just moving to Los Angeles at the time and uh... So he kind of didn't know anything, didn't know anybody, and I kind of helped him set down roots in the city, and you know get the house decorated, and you know just kind of domestic kind of stuff like that. I had a lot of friends in the town and I knew like you know I had friends that owned shops that had cool clothes and cool things for the house so you know like I would take him out we would go shopping and that kind of thing and I was just kind of showing him around you know.

CK: I see I see... And uh you know just to be clear: the relationship at some point during that time became romantic, right?

PW: Yeah, yeah, it did. Um pretty pretty much as soon as the video was done sort of you know, so I noticed when we were shooting it that there was some chemistry going on you know. So it kind of just happened like that which was kind of cool you know.

CK: Yeah, absolutely, yeah it sounds like uh, it's like one of those awesome life stories that you can tell me.

PW: Yeah it was interesting definitely. I didn't see it coming

CK: Um and so you know we're going to get more into a discussion of what he was like, and everything and specific, but generally speaking: how would you describe him in his, his relationship to you or what you saw of him?

PW: He's a very very nice guy like he is a really kind of nerdy sweet unassuming kind of character. He's a gentleman and he's very considerate. So I would say you know he's a guy that opens doors for you and you know very nice soft-spoken you know, generally considerate guy, definitely.

CK: And you said the relationship became romantic almost immediately when you reconnected, and so that would have been you would so you were with him romantically for three to four months then...

PW: Yeah somewhere in the three to four months range right yeah.

CK: Right right. Uh which uh you know is, is long enough to get a sense of someone's person most definitely...

PW: You know most definitely um. At the time I had just gotten back from a stint in Italy because I was modeling there in Milan, and I had let my apartment in the city go, and I was staying with my mom and dad in orange county so it's like a 45 minute, one hour kind of drive from the city. So I mean I can definitely say this like one thing I think we really connected over is the fact we're both very focused on our careers at the time. Um we're both kind of workaholics I think a little bit but so it was very it was very nice like in the sense that if I had like an early call time in the morning like I could I always could spend the night at his house. So I mean I was like spending the night there kind of significant number of nights I would say you know, but um it was really nice. He was always very supportive of my career and my work like if we went out somewhere, he knew I had an early call time and he's the kind of person who go: okay we gotta go home early, you gotta go to bed, you know. So it was like nice, he's very considerate you know.

CK: Wow, wow... Um so when you during this period, when you were in a relationship with him, was he ever abusive to you physically, emotionally, sexually?

PW: Never, never, not even close to it. He's a really really sweet guy. He's like um I'd say he's very romantic. Um he's the kind of person I think that to a fault can become putty in the hands of whoever his object of admiration is I think you know. So he's he's very nice like that um... No I never felt like he was never hurt or rude or anything like that with me at right now, not once not in any way shape or form. He's very romantic actually so...

CK: Now uh, some people have the impression that whenever Manson does drugs uh that he becomes this alternate personality this juice is Jekyll and Hyde situation. Were you around him when he was under the influence of drugs and...?

PW: I was around him when he was partying I was and I never saw anything like that actually, so he was just your garden variety get your buzz on and... Maybe be a little sillier kind of person, maybe like that's when you could get him to dance or something but that's about it. So i never saw and I was around him when he was uh imbibing and uh partying so... I never saw anything like that actually ever never. That's why when I heard some of the thing that came out I was very shocked because I couldn't believe it none of it aligned with the reality that I knew his behavior to be.

CK: Really, so so there, so some of these stories that have been told there was never an incident where you know he lost it or he broke a window or something...

PW: No, none of that ever rang true for me not at all no.

CK: Wow...

PW: At all he's um, he's a very chill guy actually, very chill, very um like i said very polite, very considerate, thoughtful, not somebody who speaks in a loud voice even so... It, it seems strange to me I'm like wow this can't be the same person or maybe these people are mistaken, I don't know, but yeah the Manson I know is very different than that what's been described you know.

CK: Wow, and you know, you said that uh you said that he could be putty in the hands of someone that he... A woman that he cared about or whatever. And I'm curious what um what would give you that impression was that the nature of your relationship or, or you saw his relationships with other women...

PW: I just know like that's the way he is. He's very much a people pleaser I think in that regard, and I think he's the kind of person who under uh... He just kind of seemed to be like somebody who kind of gets under somebody's spell in a way, you know, and uh it's the kind of person who sort of has sucker on their back if they're not watching themselves like to an unscrupulous female he would get walked all over, I think you know. I'm not one of those kinds of people, I don't, I mean I'm very boundary conscious. And that's the other thing too about him. My experience with him he's very boundary conscious like somebody who was very respectful, you know, like never somebody who was ever putting me in a situation where I felt uncomfortable or like that. I was being infringed on in any way shape or form, ever ever.

CK: Really.

PW: I think between the two of us as far as things like that were like I would be the more assertive of the two most definitely but I had always had that feeling from him like he's kind of a little bit self-conscious honestly. I think in a way um like even though he's a big rock star and everything else I think at the other day he still feels like he's that nerdy guy playing Dungeon's Dragon somewhere, you know. He sort of carries that around with him like his youth I guess you know, and so he's not like a jerky egomaniacal kind of guy at all. He's very I think a little bit self-conscious a little bit shy even, so out of the two of us I was the more assertive one, and I, I could see how that would probably be something that he would carry in his relationships. It was like I don't know it was funny like I was thinking and I was talking to a friend of mine about this and I was saying you know all these uh accusations kind of all add up to basically a lot of people saying that essentially that he was exercising a very strong pimp hand with them. And the thing that I always thought was a deficit the pimp hands you know to keep people in line all these people have been saying that he had a very strong tim hand and I was like the problem with him has always been. And I've always said this to people I'm like he has no pimp and whatsoever. None. His deficit of pimping was his weakness, you know. Uh his Achilles heel basically is women, I think. In the sense that he's a pushover.

CK: Wow.

PW: Yeah, and I don't mean that in an insulting or rude way whatsoever. I think it's actually kind of lovely and endearing honestly, you know. It's very kind of sweet so... But yeah he's the kind of guy that could easily be taken advantage of most definitely.

CK: Well, I mean that's a really, that's a really powerful thing you're saying there, because you're, you're painting the picture of someone who is really diametrically opposed to the image that we've been given in the media of this like, you know, mega man illuminati whole crazy.

PW: No, he's, he's the opposite of the diabolical tyrant that is not him whatsoever, you know. Like i i would like i said most often i would be the person initiating things, you know. Because he's very much like, you know, just always kind of steps back and waits, you know. He's very very considerate like that.

CK: So even, I mean, even sexually, you know, there's, there's been accusations of rape assaults. Did you ever feel like any of the, you know, you don't have to be specific if you don't want to, but did you ever feel like he was pushing your boundaries on any?..

PW: No no no. No, nothing like that ever. No he's very very very normal, you know, very very normal. Um, like I said, I could see like how it could even be that he's uh like I said no pimp hands whatsoever, you know. So he's like uh, yeah I would probably be the person initiating things, you know...

CK: But you know what you're saying it really, it really jives with um what another woman has said. I don't know if you've watched Greta Aurora's video where she talks about her weekend with Marilyn Manson, but one of the things that she said I think is really interesting that you're saying something very similar is that um he seemed kind of shy and very unlike...

PW: And very empathetic, and I think he's very tuned into the people around him. But he's very much like the kind of person that kind of like observes what's going on around him and sort of vibes things out and hangs back and lets you take the first step yeah he's very respectful. That was always my experience with him even when he was partying.

CK: I see. And now um you know one of the things that uh people will sometimes say is that uh men who are abusive or people who are abusive sometimes though they will be abusive with one person but not with another...

PW: Okay.

CK: But I, and so I'm wondering did you ever see any behavior with anyone else, not just with you? Any behavior toward women at all that was problematic and in terms of?...

PW: I cannot say that i did actually. I really can't. Um I never saw anything like that and as a matter of fact uh my best girlfriend who's been my best broker my whole life and still is my best girlfriend to this day, um in the course of uh mance and I hooking up he was moving the rest of the band out to Los Angeles the same time too and his keyboardist was really like worried he didn't want to have to move to a new town where he didn't know anybody or anything. So we ended up matchmaking my best girlfriend with his keyboardist and they ended up staying together for six years they lived together. And so she was right there with him like through six years which is like multiple girlfriends, you know, multiple girlfriends um but through Rose and Dita (?deeda?) and you know everybody in between. And she was like on the tour bus with them, like multiple tours and you know, on a tour bus it's like that setting on a tour bus is pretty tightly packed you know. It's like you're kind of stuck with everybody and you see the good, the bad, and the ugly, you know, what I mean. And so she never saw anything like that either in that whole period of time.

CK: So your your good friend who's...

PW: My best girlfriend, yeah.

CK: Best girlfriend who was dating his uh keyboardist is that right for years.

PW: Six years yeah, they listening for six years.

CK: Well he was around manson uh you know uh.

PW: He's around him on a daily basis on tour, everything else, and she would have seen something because like I think probably being on a tour bus can bring out like the bad and the angry. And everybody because they're just like you're crammed in this like kind of small confined environment. And everybody's on each of those nerves, you know, and you're traveling so you're tired and, you know, if they have their girlfriends with them you have drama. But yeah she never saw anything like that at all, never, not once.

CK: Wow.

PW: I actually always felt like good about the fact that she was like if she was gonna be out on tour with a band that she was with him. Because I always felt like I knew he had her under his wing and like a big brother, like he was like a very good protective person, like I always felt like okay she's out she's touring the world, that she's safe because she's with him.

CK: Um that's that's really well that's really incredible. Uh I mean just it's just so different than what the media has been promoting about him. I'm so glad you're clearing that up for us.

PW: Yeah it's been very lopsided, it's very unfair, you know.

CK: Why do you think?... Go ahead.

PW: Go on. No, you, please.

CK: Uh I was gonna say um you know, I have to assume that just like you and just like your friends that you're mentioning, just like Paula his uh his assistant, ex-assistant, forward and and said the same things you're saying you know that he was a, a great a great guy. And everything um there have to be more people out there who who who know that he's innocent of these allegations who have also you know known him fairly intimately if not sexually but who have known him fairly intimately and spent a lot of time with them. Um why do you think that there aren't more people coming forward like you are?

I think it's probably a matter of politics like in the in the scene um you know. People probably feel like they don't want to come out on the the side of defense for him because there's kind of certain social movements right now I think that make people feel like well if they were to come out in his defense that the witch hunt would probably expand onto them I think. Um I guess I'm in a different situation because I'm not involved with that whole scene at all anymore. So I, it gives me that immunity I guess you know, where I don't have to worry about not booking a gig or something because of it, you know.

CK: Yes. I exactly... And I just want to say you know to you but also to our audience that there are a couple of people who you know who knew Manson and could speak to his character and talk to me privately, and told that they they would like to help or they would like to come out and state the truth as they know it. But they are afraid and, and so I think you're right, I think there are a number of people who are afraid and legitimately, you know so...

PW: Yeah I think so because it's like it's, um, it's a matter of all the fact that you know once accusations like this are made you become radioactive essentially, which is not fair, and it's not right and it shouldn't be that way, you know. It's like they're whatever happened to missing until proven guilty. Uh, I don't know but it doesn't seem to be a play with like the you know the kangaroo court, you know, which is what the social media has become, I think you know. But it's very unfair, it's very unbalanced. It's it's really not right you know. And people have pressures you know like professional pressures you know like they're afraid to lose jobs whatever to come out.

CK: Um you talked about your friend who has been dating the keyboardist and everything. Have you uh talked to anybody else without naming them? But have you talked to anyone else from that group or anyone else who knows Manson? Who...

PW: Um one other person I have to talk to, yeah, who was basically of the same opinion I was. So um it was kind of strange getting on the phone initially and just saying: "Yeah I can't believe this is going on this is so messed up and it's like mesa pal", you know. Because you kind of want to tread a thin line because you want to be sure that the other person means it's messed up in the same ways you think it's messed up, you know, but that's the politics coming into play right there, you know.

CK: Yeah, yeah it's a little bit you know, it's kind of like playing poker or something like you don't really want to give away your hand when you're not sure...

PW: Exactly, exactly but you know and... I, I think that going into it like my greatest fear would have been like to hear from this person oh maybe that they had heard or seen something different than what I had because then that would have been like, oh I would have been crushed by that, you know. But uh no no no no, we're still all of the same mind because this is like all that we've ever seen is him being a good decent guy like I said he's if anything he's a pushover. And um i think if anything that's the kind of thing that would open you up possibly to being in bad situations with people maybe you know is because he is such a nice guy and people can take advantage of things like that, I think you know.

CK: Yes yes. Did you ever see a situation uh where you felt like he was... he was especially susceptible to... to that like anybody shady in his life while you were around to seem to kind of manipulate him or or uh situations with women when you are around or?...

PW: Like I said, I think he was always very very um open to being kind of influenced by females in that one way and that was just something I saw over the years honestly. Um as him being a guy like I said I think he just falls head over heels for people and then this sort of like I said putty in somebody's hands. And like I said if the hands are unscrupulous you never know what's going to happen.

CK: Uh, you said that in that in your sexual you know relationship with him that nothing was ever forced upon you are you never pressured into anything curious... I'm curious consensually speaking was he was he a really kinky guy like people make him out to be like into all of this BDSM and just can't wait to tie women.

PW: No, none of the above, no, none of the above like standard issue normal person, very normal person.

CK: Gotcha, gotcha.

PW: Got nothing nothing wild and crazy basically. I think, it's probably hard for people to wrap their brains around but he's, he's really the opposite of his persona, his stage persona that's who he put that's the work hat that you put on when you go to work but that has no reflection on the person he is at home, in his own private time. He's a very ju,st very normal guy, very regular domestic kind of person, you know. In fact he's kind of nerdy and a little bit rainy which is like, you know, one of the endearing things about him honestly. Um I'm kind of nerdy too so I get it you know like we used to like trade books to read and stuff like that you know like that kind of stuff and yeah...

CK: Wow. Well and you know what you're saying it really uh it really drives with uh with what Rose McGowan um said in her her memoir or whatever she wrote. She wrote about their life and you know you use the word "very domestic", and that's, that's what she wrote about is that they have a...

PW: Sort of a june award cleaver kind of thing yeah definitely very very much so. Not what people would expect but that's the whole thing is like you know when you are living um in the entertainment industry you're, you're pervaying to the public a certain image, but that has no bearing on who you really are. It's just that's your image that's what you're selling, that's your product, you know. Um I think if anything for somebody that has to come out and always be this provocative, um controversial kind of person as if that's what you're doing for work don't you want to come home and relax, so basically you're gonna be the opposite of that when you like take off the work face and you close the front door you're gonna relax, and just be a regular person, you know. So I think that's you know one of the pressures is that actually when you go out like... When I was modeling there's like a lot of um social pressure to like attend a lot of parties. You kind of have to schmooze, you know like go out and hobnob and rub shoulders with people. It's kind of part of the job and the same thing when you're in the music industry. You have to go out and meet people, you got to see and be seen. And it's like when you're in that kind of situation yeah you're out there and you've got your work face on you're out there doing your thing. But yeah you want to go home and you want to be a regular person you know. You want to have like a place for some sanctuary from that you know, when you get home you know. And just be human.

CK: Right, you know I saw an interview with him years ago. I think it was a Larry King interview. And he and one of the things that Manson said to paraphrase him was that his personality was his real personality was very different from his age persona and... And you know I think that I, I think that sometimes a kind of a stage persona can even be a way to compensate for one's own, you know, deficiencies or shyness and... So it kind of makes sense to me that you would have this sure kind of awkward person who projects this that's totally different.

PW: Sure absolutely. So yeah I think there's an element of that um going on, but yeah when he's not in work mode he is really just a lovely down to earth guy honestly.

CK: Now, how old were you when you dated him?

PW: So I was 21.

CK: Okay okay, so uh you know because and I brought that up because some people have uh who believe that he's guilty have said that it's possible that he didn't pick on his older girlfriends uh or didn't abuse his older girlfriends but was was abusing the younger ones because they were more vulnerable or susceptible or whatever but you were 21.

PW: And I was 21. So that's pretty young, you know.

CK: Yeah yeah, uh okay. Well let's talk about uh the infamous video

PW: Yeah, this is a good one because you know like that's the other thing is like I first of all I heard somewhere that I was dead so guess what: Hi, I'm not dead.

CK: Yeah. Let me and let me just briefly just kind of summarize for our audience. I know a number of people in the audience already know what we're talking about. But in one of the lawsuits against Manson it was alleged they're actually in a couple of them it was referenced that there was this, this video that he had this personal home movie that he had made and uh it's described almost as a kind of in the lawsuits it's almost a kind of a snuff film in a way that there's this young girl makes it sound like she's underage this young fan of his was exploited, and forced to do bad things in this movie, and maybe even was pistol whipped and uh etc etc. So can you just tell us what was this video? How did it come about? What was the reality of it for you?

PW: Okay so the, the video was actually so... Manson was interested he wanted to branch out into like filmmaking this was something we had talked about a couple times. And um you know because he is a creative artistic kind of guy, um and so I think that was like um something that he had never delved into that he was interested in seeing about how that would work out as a form of expression for him. And so we had discussed it and he had come up with something called a treatment. So treatment is something you write before you make a like a music video or something it's basically like a concept idea, right. So that you say well you know there's gonna be four people in a room and they find a bear, and they shoot the bear, and eat the bear or whatever it is, you know. Um so he had written up treatment and um you know he had scripted up some general lines, and he had said he wanted to be basically something it was resonating from the fact that he had been experiencing like death threats and stuff like this. And so I think that's something he said he was processing kind of through the film. Um so he read me the treatment, and uh we went over like the lines and everything in the general concept and the goal of it all right, and uh so we came to that agreement that we're gonna try to pull this thing off you know and so... Yeah so he had me show up at the place at his house and um the band was there and they you know they knew me obviously, but they weren't sure what was going on. And so he had given me a piece of art and wanted me to bring it to him and he was like okay this is what you're gonna do, you have to pretend like you're like a crazed fan and you figure out where I lived. So I was gonna act like this fan who knew where he lived and I was gonna ring the doorbell and look look I brought you this piece of art, you know. And uh it all kind of devolved into a game of like truth or dare and got kind of crazy from there. But from what I understand from this um the lawsuit from what I've heard is people are running around saying: oh no, she drank his urine or something like that. I'm like no, I didn't really drink tea and I supposedly like I guess that I was supposedly grampian and I made him drink the peeps. No, neither was strength tea. So there's this funny thing like with movies, it's like yeah they can make things look like that in a movie but it's not really happening. Um I kind of was offended by the fact that I was basically being described by all these people as this person with no agency who is this vulnerable victim and all this other stuff it's like: no, that was a professional job for me, I got paid you know. I was on it was on the books I got paid it was all discussed ahead of time. Um I knew what I was doing going into it. For me it was actually kind of cool because I had only been doing like modeling that's kind of two-dimensional you know. You just get photos taken of you, you don't get speaking parts, so for me it was interesting in me, branching kind of out and sort of pushing my own boundaries in the sense that I had never like actually had the confidence to try on an acting role whatsoever. But um I kind of had a method when I was modeling that basically before I started shooting pictures I would just ask the photographer: okay so who am i supposed to be today? Like what role do I need to get into, and I would just kind of like try to get into the headspace. So I did the same thing that day, and i just kind of let myself get into the role, and, you know, start channeling the character, right, and so he was doing the same thing i think and... So I can say this much too... is that, there's absolutely no possible way that I could have ever put myself into that headspace to kind of be this role if I had had any kind of fear of him or felt threatened by him in any way as a matter of fact I felt like completely and totally safe. That's why I felt like I could be in this kind of horrible situation or even make believe I was vulnerable because I was so safe with him and I felt. No, I had no sense that he would ever harm me at all no way. So uh I was not pistol-whipped either by the way, or afraid or abused or, or degraded. Like just because somebody does that in a movie that doesn't mean it's in real life. Like we spent the rest of the evening hanging out like when we were done shooting it we spent the rest of the evening hanging out and just having a good time and listening to Iron Maiden records you know. Very normal.

CK: And he definitely didn't uh kill you because you're here.

PW: No no no, I have not returned from the grave to give this interview, no. Yeah no, I mean and I was not hit or struck in any way shape or for or fashion or or forced to do anything or made to do anything or threatened in any way that I felt afraid or fearful at all you know. Nothing at all like that.

CK: So so just to be very clear uh, you were not under age.

PW: I was 21.

CK: 21. It was...

PW: ... a professional paid professional gig.

CK: Yep, there were other professional people around.

PW: Absolutely. Uh Joseph Cultice was there. He was the one who was shooting it. I think if Manson had his brothers, he would have shot it too. He would have shot it as well because it was his baby. But at the same time all he was going to star in it so he can do both you know.

CK: Right right.

PW: Yeah so.

CK: It was a professional job, you weren't underage, and you feel like you in no way were.

PW: I actually enjoyed it because like I felt like like I was able to really give into the character, and getinto character. And we just started just kind of really rolling with it. It was pretty awesome actually. It was really cool. And it's funny because um from what I understand it's uh very believable I guess, like I gave a very believable, uh acting job. So I'm like gosh I'm really kicking myself because actually over the years after I like had retired from modeling, I was offered some actually kind of big acting roles. And I turned them down you know why because I was like you know I'm not a formerly trained actress because I was thinking myself I couldn't pull that off probably but it's like had i known that I was so convincing that people would think that I was dead somewhere. I probably should have taken those those gigs, you know.

CK: And I mean, I, I hate to, I hate to be a downer and agree with you but yeah you probably should...

PW: Yeah, but you know it's okay um...

CK: I know that. Uh I know that you're enjoying very much fulfilled and this uh this next act of your life so...

PW: Yes, definitely.

CK: Um okay so yeah not, uh, you were not exploited you were not underwriting.

PW: I didn't feel like degraded, humiliated or anything like that. No it was, it was, it was make believe it was you notice it's called role-playing, it's role-playing that's what you're doing when you're like when you're in character you're playing a role, you know. When he came up with the idea that he just discussed with me, if I was interested in helping with this project, and I was like yeah okay sure, and then we made the time for it and we figured out the fees and everything. And you know we acted in it together and it didn't get uh distributed but actually parts of it were actually used I guess in the end of a video Dead to the World which was a it was a VHS of a live show I guess. And he used parts of it in the the outro I think for that. So he asked me to do an acting job, and I did it. And it was used for the same purposes that a commercial film would be asked used for, you know so... If he hired you to do some film work you got the film work yeah.

CK: And so he wasn't as far as you can see he wasn't in the, in the habit of uh of dangling fake jobs or the promise of...

PW: No no no no no no not that i'm aware of no.

CK: Uh now...

PW: As a matter of fact there had been some discussion actually in brevity about um possibly having me do the video for Apple of Sodom actually as well. But I actually had to go because I at the time I had been promised to go to Paris for a work stint, and I had been putting it off for a couple of months. And kind of my agent was riding my ass about it like he was supposed to be in Paris, like last month, what's going on. And I was like kind of just busy enjoying myself and not going to Paris like I should have. So but yeah, so I didn't end up eventually going to Paris. Um so I wasn't around to stick around for that because I had other other things cooking they were kind of more important you know, and I had already racked up enough videos, um. So I did uh that video for Long Hard Road Out of Hell, but I also did the Push It video for Garbage, and um I did another video for the band Cracker is Eurotrash Girl, I was in that one too. And I also did and, this is the funny part, um I did a RnB video.

CK: You did an RnB video?

PW: I did!

CK: Do you remember what's the name?

PW: But the band's called um they're like a boys to men kind of band and the band's called um portrait and i think this song is called Call Me. Like it was pretty cool i got to dance around and act like a fly girl it was pretty rad

CK: I'm gonna...

PW: That's just all the fun you get to do so. Yeah I had kind of um done enough music videos and I needed to get back to Europe because I had some stuff like big campaigns that were waiting for me essentially so.

CK: Well I'm gonna find some uh some shots from those music videos and...

PW: Absolutely.

CK: ...try to put that so let's see he can see you because uh I don't want this I mean this video is not just about about Manson but also when you've had, you've had such an interesting experience in the entertainment industry as well.

PW: Oh yeah absolutely it's definitely an adventure you know. But I think it's also what you make of it too you know it's like it depends what you kind of uh bring for yourself, what you bring into it you know. Like um a lot of people go into it and they don't have like a certain sense of their self and even though I I started modeling and stuff when I was like 19 which for modeling is like a dinosaur age to start like a lot of girls start when they're 15 or 16. But I'm really glad I started when I did because I I wasn't open to anybody else's opinion about who I needed to be or what I needed to do I was very very very sure of myself and who I was. So i think it's like anything else if you have good boundaries you're gonna have better results you know because that way you don't feel the pressure to be overly molded by people around you which is something that happens with modeling because I think you know every day you're basically renting out your body, really, and you're like asking a photographer to you become their medium for their art. Like the same way like a sculptor has clay, you're the clay, you know. And if you don't have a very centered sense of who you are you're probably gonna like maybe lose your place circle you're out or, you know. I mean like lose sight of who you are, you know so if you don't have a very certain sense of who you are and kind of be cool with yourself, and know who you are and know. Also because of that like what you will and won't do you know and what you're willing to work with and what you think is it acceptable things like for me honestly like I have, I had a great reputation, I had a lot of photographers that would just book me without casting me, because they had worked with me a lot before and they knew that like I'm the kind of person that will do crazy things to get a good shot. Like I will be barefoot in the snow and smiling because like I'm like yes we're gonna make this amazing picture together, you know. But that's just for me because I was there to get great pictures, you know, and the photographers had to get good pictures. And we're all in the same having the same goal together, you know. But uh yeah I mean it's definitely something it's a slippery slope if you get into it and you don't know who you are, or what your your limits are, you could probably get into trouble. I could see that definitely because, I mean, there are, there are unsavory people in the industry, you know, and then that's the thing too is like I know kind of predatory men when you're a model like you know I used to go sometimes on eight to ten castings a day depending on like what was up, and that's a lot of people you have to go and meet. And there are definitely not everybody's on the up and up there are people that are un unwholesome sorts out there that are you get exposed to when you're modeling because you have to meet all these strangers and you find yourself in a working situation with all these people so I mean I I know predatory people. And I can tell you this: Manson isn't one of them, you know.

CK: Wow.

PW: You know and I I feel like I've been around the block enough times to know the difference you know because of just being in the industry you know.

CK: I keep saying "wow" just because it's uh, it's you know, you're so, you're so, you're so sure of what you're saying, and it comes across as being very genuine the whole conviction.

PW: In everything I'm saying I have total conviction you know, like I'm not here to speculate about what anybody else you know, experienced. But I know what I experienced and that's why I was like this is crazy, you know, for me it just really doesn't align with the reality of my experience at all. And it's not because i'm naive or somebody who turns a blind eye to bad behavior or anything like that not even like you know like I'm I'm pretty particular with what I'll like tolerate from people around me, you know. And he was definitely somebody who never made me feel disrespected in any way shape or form.

CK: I'm sure that you um you saw him relate to employees and I... What I wanted to ask actually again another another of the accusations was that he was uh he was abusive to his employees, to his staff. And that in fact one of the um one of the accusers said that basically everybody around him sort of lived in terror, of his next outburst, or his next insane demand or whatever.

PW: I never saw anything like that. That was never anything i saw. And you have to remember too that I had always this line of communication with my best friend through who was with the keyboardist, right? And if he had been doing this kind of crazy tyrannical behavior I would have heard about it, because my best girlfriend would have been bitching to me about it, because she would have caught, you know, like where they say shit rolls down the hill, right, you know. So like if he was gonna get exposed to something like that she probably would have caught it secondhand and I would have had to listen to it because that's what girlfriends are for, right?

CK: Right right, no, for sure I um so... I know that people will be curious about why the relationship ended. I don't as much as you or as little as you want to say but how would you describe the the end of the relationship?

PW: Like i said, we were both very focused on our careers, um and I had been putting off this trip to Paris for like a while and my agent was kind of on me about that. And it's kind of a funny thing it was sort of serendipitous but um yeah so I was actually with him at the premiere to the movie (???) and that was actually like he met Rose McGowan. And it's funny because I mean I was there with him, we were there together. But um you know I just kind of saw that and I was like looking and she made a beeline and came on over and I was like hm that's interesting. I was like, well you know, I kind of have other things to do because it's like I I don't know I just don't do that kind of stuff like I'm not gonna like it's not worth it to me. So I was like you know I didn't have a trip to Paris to take you know, so I just took off and I went to Paris, actually, uh.

CK: I guess yeah...

PW: I didn't I kind of think in the moment I like thought about it I'm like maybe I lost track of my goal right now you know like because I did kind of I was putting off a trip that i should have taken. And I wasn't super surprised to find out like a month later that she had moved in with him. I was like wow imagine that, you know. But um it was okay because you know like actually everything between he and I was very cordial and remain cordial all and has remained cordial between us. So we never had any kind of weird parting ways or anything actually. There was a period of time when he was um trying to get a hold of a photographer that had shot him for the cover of Spin, um a guy named by the name of Andrea Jacoby. Uh and at the time I was actually living with him and so he was trying to get hold of him, and couldn't get a hold of him, so he actually ended up going through my best girlfriend and getting our number from her and you know he called me up and called up and at the office, and was like ah and i mean: Hello, who's this, you know. It was just, no, we stayed friends. Everything was always okay like we never had a reason to not be friendly to each other. There was never anything negative in our... There never really was departing ways. We both just were busy and had things to do, you know.

CK: Got you. That's a nice way to end every relationship.

PW: Yeah but I mean you you know like there's so few people in this world that you meet that are really super cool, that you really click with. And just because you don't click romantically doesn't mean you have to like shunt them out of your life because generally speaking if they're good people they're good people and you keep them around just on that basis, right, you know. It's like just because someone can't fulfill all your needs in this one way doesn't mean you want to discard them completely. It just doesn't make sense. There's not enough cool people in this world to do that with everybody, you know.

CK: Amen! There there are not enough

PW: Yeah, yeah.

CK: Now i'm curious: where did you uh?... Where did you live? I'm sorry, where was he living during the period when you were dating? Like not the address but like what kind was it a house...

PW: With a house. It was a big house in the Hollywood Hills.

CK: Okay. So this was not when he was at the um at the the apartment over the liquor store.

PW: No no no, he had a... It was a very big house in Hollywood Hills you know. Multiple stories kind of fancy large place?

CK: Did uh so again one of the things that's come out in the allegations: is that he liked to he he'd like to keep everything so dark that um people would have to wear cave lamps, headlamps to get around the house?

PW: Yonkers.

CK: No?

PW: No, I never experienced anything with that that warranted spelunkers. But I will tell you I mean I personally am not a huge fan of really brightly lit areas, but I mean I think I'm just like I'm a little photosensitive my eyes are light so i most people i have to wear sunglasses until the sun goes down definitely. And I am big on keeping my curtains drawn but that's just because, you know, I kind of like my privacy and stuff and I... I think I heard somewhere too that there was a lot of complaints about the the thermostat setting in the house. And I'm I have this much to say to people like that like if you are in Los Angeles, Los Angeles is pretty warm, it's kind of generally warm, it's like you know on Christmas it may be 72 to 74 degrees outside. But that's not counting if you're standing in the sun and it's even warmer and you got a meridian. This is one of those things I like I love L.A. and I I kind of miss L.A. but I don't miss the fact that everywhere you go you're sweating so your makeup is like running down your face, like that's never a good thing. And so yeah I keep my thermostat kind of low too. So and if you tend to be somebody who likes to wear like leather jackets, and fur coats, and stuff like that, it's really good to keep the thermostat low because then you can like look fabulous and keep your face looking right too you know. Otherwise you're going to be like a sweaty mess. So I mean at worst like what do you put on a cardigan like if you're... If i'm in somebody's house and it's a little chilly for me I would probably put a jacket on or some socks or something you know that would probably be what I would do. And yeah I never experienced this uh aspect...

CK: I feel like it was like a like you were in a kind of a an intentionally designed like torture situation where that he was trying to...

PW: No, I can't say that that was ever my experience. No, I can't. Um you know like uh like I said too I never experienced any kind of sense that oh that he was trying to direct how I appeared or have anything to do with what I looked other than when we were like you know getting together for like the video and they were talking about like what the general uh concept for the video is but outside of that...

CK: So he had no requirements or expectations for how you would wear your hair, how you would dress?

PW: No actually he was always just... No, he's like I said he's a gentleman, he's a nice guy you know. I think I can't think of one time he was ever critical of my appearance you know. He was always just, you know, you look really lovely, you know, he's a gentleman. He has good manners you know so he always was very appreciative of things like that.

CK: What about uh sleeping? I, and again... Some of the accusations are that he would um he would force a kind of sleep deprivation on his accusers. He wouldn't let them sleep, he would wake them up, he would yell at them if they tried to sleep. He never experienced any of that I...

PW: I can't say that I did. No no, I don't know, maybe I can keep the same groovy hours as he can or whatever But um actually but that's really not true. Like I said to you earlier though it's like I was working a lot of the time um when we were hanging out and so when you are modeling you need your but... your beauty sleep. You actually really do you if you can't stay out all night and party and all that nonsense and then like expect to go to work in the morning and look okay. So like I said he was very respectful of my work and what I was doing as much as I was respectful of whatever he had to do like you know. You just have to be understanding that you meet somebody and this is what they do for let me be okay with it you know. Um so no i never experienced being uh woken up in the middle of the night or anything wild like that, no.

CK: And you are you already said that he was uh well to paraphrase kind of vanilla or standard when it came to sexual...

PW: Absolutely.

CK: You never...

PW: Like I said I feel kind of bad I'm like oh I hate to burst the mystique, you know. I kind of feel guilty like oh I feel like I'm like, and I'm not a big fan of telling tales out of school either. It's not my style. It's like I'm I kind of have too good of manners for that but yeah no um very standard issue very normal guy, very vanilla, nothing wild, nothing crazy. I'm sorry I hate to, like, let everybody down but...

CK: Well you know, and it's uh it's, it's kind of ironic or funny or maybe not funny but however you want to put it that now uh because of this situation that you know it's a good thing for people to hear that Manson's maybe kind of boring or not boring but you know a little vanilla and stuff... Go head!

PW: Yeah, I mean he's a very normal guy and uh yeah I mean like I said: when you're living that kind of lifestyle though like like I said like you know there's a lifestyle where there's a lot of pressure put on you to always appear a certain way in public. And like I said I mean we both both he and I both have that kind of thing going on because of what we're doing for living you're both selling your image then you have to like you know present yourself in a certain way all the time, so when you get home there's some it's a major kind of need for balance in your in your like work life and real life you know. But yeah like we we were prone to do things like go to IKEA, like go to California Pizza Kitchen, like normal people stuff, like I remember this one time being at IKEA with him he bought these ridiculous um fuzzy red slippers that i couldn't talk him out of...

45:15

CK: [Laughter] Oh wish me a picture of that.

PW: Yeah right, so but yeah there yeah eat your hearts out, imagine that, that man, that scary dude in those fuzzy red slippers you know, so he's a very like i said he's very chilly he's very sweet you know.

CK: And did he ever isolate you, tried to isolate you from your family, and friends or anything like that?

PW: No absolutely, not never, nothing like that, like we were very respectful of each other's like kind of lives. Like I said we both were very focused on our work but no there was never anything like that never you know. Like and and most of the time like he he had people around all the time, whether it was Jeordie or whoever. You know, he had friends around, I had my girlfriend around like you know he never tried to isolate me from anybody, no, never, not once.

CK: You know Manson has said before in an interview, I'm sure you've read this, that he's fly paper to uh to I don't remember the term he used to disturb women or crazy women or whatever...

PW: Damaged women...

CK: Yeah yeah and obviously you know anybody can tell by this interview that you're you're not in that category but I'm curious though: um what if he ever did, he ever say anything like this to you like did he ever comment on his romantic history or that he was prone to to these kinds of relationships or anything?

PW: So when I first met him he actually was with his girlfriend Missy at the time. Um and I think he just like had, I don't know, I just I always got the feeling that he kind of was a little bit Captain Savajo maybe. Um to put it like in a way like that everybody probably understands he's like a guy that like you can just see being one of those people a little bit of a white tonight, you know, like when there's like the damn island distress because he is kind of this romantic sort of guy. And um yeah I could see how he's Captain Savajo. So he kind of like I think falls for troubled women you know damsel in distress I think that's probably something he does yeah.

CK: Did uh did he ever bite you until you were black and blue all over?

PW: NO, he never bit me in any way shape or form. He's never been never been never met me not in a way that I recall nothing that stands out like in my mind like I mean maybe if it was some nibbling or something but you know I would probably be equally guilty of that.

CK: Yeah yeah well yeah, it's it's not it's not an abnormal thing uh during during sex uh but it sounds like but that you know again that was one thing that's saying.

PW: Nothing. Uh nothing notable no I can't say so.

CK: Now um you know some people have brought up that he admitted in an interview that when he and Evan Rachel Wood broke up that you know he had called her, I don't know, however many times like a hundred times or something and that he would he cut himself and so forth and I I'm not saying and and none of that by the way is is is abuse of her right. But uh you know I I think that, I think that people have a hard time people hear that and they think: oh well if he was really passionate or if he was really like out of, you know, like really revved up like that then then then maybe he did other things, maybe he rapes people or he hurt people or whatever. How do you, how did it what do you make of that statement that admission by him that?

PW: something I think that I I could say I think I observed around him is um you know he's very much somebody I think that uh when he's around like you know probably somebody like the object of his admiration or whatever, there's a side of him like he's kind of a little bit like a little boy you know. And he's very... There's a side of him that's very like you know gentle but I could see how if he was in a situation like that where he was rejected like that maybe that if anything he was you know being self-abusive if anything I think in that situation. But I think that's the part of him that has probably always had like a little bit of like uh impostor syndrome. Maybe because he was this nerdy kind of social outcast, and then like like I said you know even though he became big and famous and important or whatever but at the end of the day he still feels like that guy who should be in the garage with his eight-sided dive playing Dungeons and Dragons you know. So I think that there's probably that aspect of his personality too. And like I said as well he's a softy he's a pushover he's the kind of person who if anything was probably kicking himself wondering what he had done wrong you know.

CK: Um yeah well you know I think that as far as the uh...

PW: He is that romantic personality type too like the head over heels type who like I said that's the thing is I think that has been his to his detriment is that when he's like sprung on somebody he will overlook all sorts of things you know and it's like she can do no wrong you know it's like there's an element of that him about that to him which is kind of charming when you think about it because it's like you know all or nothing right.

CK: Yeah yeah.

PW: But I, I cannot imagine seeing that channel towards like rage or anger or anything like that. He's not that type, like I could almost make sense of it, being more that something he would turn in on himself really honestly like what you just said, um you know.

CK: Right right... Well yeah, thank you. Is there anything related to the accusations or and what's or what's being said about him that I haven't covered that you want to mention?

PW: Let me think um you know I didn't really want to speculate on anything that anybody else was saying really, other than to say that my experience was very uh diametrically opposed to that i think really. Um and I want to be clear too that i take uh violence against women very seriously. And I think it's like an important thing and I think people need to be taken care of if they've had an experience like that and i also want to say that I encourage people if they have an encounter like that to get help you know, go to the authorities uh you know and and find someone you can talk to because it's definitely a bad thing and I would never think it's okay but anything by any means but at the same time I find it hard to believe you know that these kind of things would have happened in a setting with him I just don't see it you know.

CK: Did you ever hear any stories from others about him doing...

PW: Never.

CK: ... this repeatable people about him doing stuff like this?

PW: Never. Like I said and my best girlfriend was you know literally like that close to him all those years and she never saw anything like that either.

CK: For people who will say, well she's she's really not said much of anything you know bad about him. How do we know that she's she's being honest? Is there what what character flaw could you could you throw out there for us you know that Manson that you feel comfortable saying that what what's one of his like weaknesses or what's one of his problems uh in terms of his character that you observe?

PW: Well like I said um, I think he's a little bit insecure and a little bit dorky really. And I mean that's that account for something I mean I think it's I think it's kind of cute, but that's just because I'm kind of dorky too but... Yeah I mean I would say those two things, would be things I would ascribe to him you know um yeah honestly. And being a little bit of a um a chump maybe. And that sounds terrible I'm sorry, forgive me. I feel bad saying that but he's a little bit of a chump because he's a pushover for girls. And like you know like his weak spot is girls I think you know like women like he's silly like that you know.

CK: I think we yeah I think...

PW: The starry-eyed dreamer you know.

CK: Yeah um you know I again just want our audience to know that you did not seek out the limelight here, that you're very reluctantly coming forward...

PW: I am indeed but um but I'm glad and I like I said I just felt like I wouldn't have felt right if I hadn't said something so you know.

CK: Well your conscience can be clear and also I think that people who watch this interview are gonna be very clear on what you're doing and why and I think it'll be very well received, so um yes...

PW: I hope so.

CK: So so thank you so much!

PW: Thank you, thank you!

CK: Yeah and to our audience uh thanks for tuning in. And uh as you know these types of videos are controversial so um anything that you want to drop in my Paypal or Patreon. Yeah this is it takes a lot of effort and time to do these videos, and so I uh I'm so grateful for everybody who's watching make sure that you subscribe to my channel if you haven't already check out my other videos on Manson's innocence. I've done hours of videos in which I break down the accusations and go over the lawsuits and the interviews the accusers and everything and and talk about why Manson is innocent of these allegations.

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